most recent trickles friends calendar user info slide back slide back slip forward slip forward
Trickle of Consciousness - If it is what it is, is that all that it is?
jkason
[info]jkason
Add to Memories
Tell a Friend
If it is what it is, is that all that it is?
Larry Young of AiT/Planet Lar discusses the criticism of the Brian Wood / Becky Cloonan series, Demo (no permalinks that I can find. It's the June 11 entry):

It's interesting to me, personally, that most audience members find the various snapshots of Demo so compelling that it seems, to me at least, that many readers are missing the lemon because of the meringue. Many folks who should ostensibly know better get fixated on the what-happens-then or the but-what-about-the or the he-didn't-take-responsibility or whatever. Me, I think they're not getting the fact that the story is the story. You're on the bus, or you're not. No need to blame the bus.


Now, certainly I'm willing to admit that a work should be critiqued on its own merits. Even within that restriction, however, there's plenty of room for criticism. The story is the story, but that doesn't mean it's without flaws.

It may be that Young simply doesn't think of writing the same way I do. After all, his response to initial criticism of the weakness of story in his own Planet of the Capes was "All of your issues with the story are addressed if you don't read it as a superhero comic and read it as an allegory FOR superhero comics."

Both of Young's comments together suggest an approach that is, as I understand it: the only level of a story that matters is the level that most interests the author, and if you don't read it there, that's the reader's fault, not a flaw in the writing.

And that, really, is just plain lazy. Truly impressive writing works on all the applicable levels, or at the very least plays a skilled magician's game of compelling the reader to focus on the levels that work while failing to notice those that aren't quite so solidly constructed.

If you haven't managed that, you haven't managed it. Playing "you just don't get it" does no one any good, and just leads to a lot of naked emperors prancing around. While that might make for good porn, it's not the best way to encourage critical thought and improve your storytelling skills.

Ah, and about the bus? If the bus has always had a flaw in the transmission, so the whole thing rattles like it's in an earthquake every time it hits second gear, no, you don't blame the bus. It is, however, perfectly sound to consider pointing out the mechanical flaw to the designer or the manufacturer, or possibly calling up the bus company and wondering why they put the bus on the road without sending it back to the mechanic first.

Tags: , ,

Comments
From: (Anonymous) Date: June 11th, 2004 01:27 pm (UTC) (wanna link?)
I guess what I'm trying to get at, philosophically, is that just because a "critic" sees a work as flawed doesn't mean that the work *is* flawed. :)

L.
From: (Anonymous) Date: June 11th, 2004 01:36 pm (UTC) (wanna link?)
Conversely, just because an author says a work isn't flawed doesn't mean the work *isn't* flawed. It's all interpretive analysis, but statements like "The work is the work" just seem designed to close down discussion.

- John Jakala
From: (Anonymous) Date: June 11th, 2004 01:53 pm (UTC) (wanna link?)
I suppose I'd argue that an author's analysis of his own work doesn't have to be interpretive, but a "critic's" analysis does have to be, by definition. But that's all phenomenology and Heidegger 101. :)

Statements like "the work is the work" aren't employed by me in an attempt to "close down discussion" but rather to coax a little formalism from folks.
From: (Anonymous) Date: June 11th, 2004 02:09 pm (UTC) (wanna link?)
I guess it depends how "privileged" one sees authorial intent as being, and how one views the relation between intent and result. Generally, yes, an author is probably going to have the best insight into what s/he is going after (intent), but I can easily think up counter-examples where an author is oblivious to the quality or content of his or her work (result). Think of Ed Wood, for example. Just because a creator says the work is genius doesn't make it so.

Or, in other words, an author might not have to interpret his/her own intent, but there are no such guarantees when it comes to the actual execution of that intent (i.e., the work).

- John Jakala
From: (Anonymous) Date: June 11th, 2004 02:31 pm (UTC) (wanna link?)
"I guess it depends how 'privileged' one sees authorial intent as being..."

Where do you think I come down on that one? :)

Parenthetically, your smooth slip from initally discussing author's (self-) analysis with me to a statement on authorial intent is usually why I like to leave it at "the work is the work." It's too easy to move the goalposts.

L.
From: (Anonymous) Date: June 11th, 2004 02:50 pm (UTC) (wanna link?)
What slip? I acknowledged the transition here: "...and how one views the relation between intent and result." I was actually trying to clarify what we were referring to (intent vs. the resulting work) so there'd be less slippage. ;)

And I would come down as saying that an author's analysis of his/her own work is interpretive. It might be a better one, but it's still an interpretation. (And, yes, I would apply that same standard to my own work.)

If "the work is the work," why bother with criticism at all?

- John Jakala
From: (Anonymous) Date: June 11th, 2004 03:03 pm (UTC) (wanna link?)
"If 'the work is the work,' why bother with criticism at all?"

A valid question. :)

Does Dave Sim's "All stories are true" or Joe Casey's "People see what they want to see" a better replacement for "The work is the work," in your view?

"And I would come down as saying that an author's analysis of his/her own work is interpretive."

Oh, sure, it can be, as I said above.

L.
From: (Anonymous) Date: June 11th, 2004 03:21 pm (UTC) (wanna link?)
Does Dave Sim's "All stories are true" or Joe Casey's "People see what they want to see" a better replacement for "The work is the work," in your view?

Not really. But then I'm not a fan of pithy sayings in general.

Oh, sure, it can be, as I said above.

When would an author's analysis of his/her own work not be interpretive? Maybe I'm just being dense or dogmatic, but it seems that any stab at meaning involves interpretation. So if the author says A means X (or even A means A), that's interpretive.

I suppose just offering a plot summary might be close to non-interpretive, but even that seems interpretive in what it leaves out (structure, language, tone, etc.)

- John Jakala
From: (Anonymous) Date: June 11th, 2004 03:31 pm (UTC) (wanna link?)
John, I don't think you're being dense or dogmatic--of course, I'm biased, since I agree with you. "The work is the work" and those other pithy sayings are starting to sound an awful lot like obfuscated ways of glibly disposing of disagreeable interpretations.

Steven Berg
From: (Anonymous) Date: June 11th, 2004 04:35 pm (UTC) (wanna link?)
"So if the author says A means X (or even A means A), that's interpretive."

I guess that's where I draw the line, personally, then. "A means X" seems interpretive, to me, yes. "A means A" doesn't, is all. But if you're taking "interpretive" to just mean "explain" or "give meaning to" or whatever, then, yes, I understand what you mean.

Also, I just want to add to everyone in general and to you in particular that I'm enjoying this discussion immensely and I don't mean to be coming off in an adversarial manner at all. Hence my use of all those damn smilies. But I thought I should come right out and say it, too.

Just want to turn over this rock with you all. :)

L.
From: (Anonymous) Date: June 11th, 2004 02:46 pm (UTC) (wanna link?)
OK, can somebody point me to some discussion of Demo in which people failed to recognize that "the work is the work?" Because, as I said on my own blog, all the interpretations I've seen of Demo stories have been backed up with cogent arguments. I don't agree with all of them but I've yet to see somebody offer an exegesis that can't be support by direct reference to the text.

Steven Berg
http://blog.peiratikos.net/
From: (Anonymous) Date: June 11th, 2004 04:07 pm (UTC) (wanna link?)

Re: formalism

I have to agree Steven--I mean, I'm such a formalist that I'm practically a New New Critic, but formalism isn't about treating a text as an inspired document (i.e. beyond criticism), it's about treating it as a rich resource. I did say "the work is the work" last week, but what I meant by that is that, if we're going to take issue with a book, we have to take issue with what's there (and, of course, what's omitted), not with what we WISH had been there. The philosophy comes out in the critique, not in a suggestion on how to do better. The work is the work--but the critique is the critique (and yes, whatever the author thinks the work is about is also a critique). Neither one has any more a priori importance than the other--"importance" is lent to texts by readers, not by authors.

Dave
From: (Anonymous) Date: June 11th, 2004 04:27 pm (UTC) (wanna link?)

Re: formalism

"I did say 'the work is the work' last week, but what I meant by that is that, if we're going to take issue with a book, we have to take issue with what's there (and, of course, what's omitted), not with what we WISH had been there."

This is what I intend to convey by the phrase (and by the binary finality of "On the bus or not"), as well. As I said last week: THANK GOD YOU SHOWED UP. :)

L.
From: (Anonymous) Date: June 11th, 2004 08:11 pm (UTC) (wanna link?)

Re: formalism

Sure. On the other hand, "what's omitted" and "what we wish had been there" can get fuzzy a lot of the time. The Demo #6 discussion has been a pretty good example of this: is the lack of information about how Ken got from adolescent zombie lord to married adult a flawed omission, or does the story work fine without it? A lot of people had the same problem with A Beautiful Mind, depending on which parts of John Nash's life they thought were important enough that they should have been in the movie. Well, of course, a lot of people have the same problem with every biographical fiction.

So, given that fuzziness, I'm not so sure "the work is the work" is terribly useful as a measuring stick for critical analysis. It seems like one of those nice theories that's almost impossible to apply in practice. In fact, the fuzziness is what made me think "the work is the work" sounds a lot like a convenient way of disposing of disagreeable interpretations.

Steven Berg
see the 14 drops in the bucket or add a drop
time and tide
Back July 2009
1234
567891011
12131415161718
19202122232425
262728293031
what's around here?
blogging along...
comics from the ether
power pack
news of the comic
on this page
Anonymous (no subject) [+10]
Anonymous Re: formalism [+2]
tags